Ben Ard (00:02.495)
Welcome back to another episode of content amplified today. I'm joined by Masha Masha. Welcome to the show
masha (00:08.782)
Bye bye, glad to be here.
Ben Ard (00:10.637)
Yeah, Masha, I'm excited. This topic is super front of mind for so many marketers. I think a lot of people are going to enjoy this conversation today. But before we dive in, let's get to know you, who you are, work history, background, all that kind of fun stuff.
masha (00:26.185)
All right, let's see, what would be relevant to share and not too personal? So I'll start with the quick headline of I'm the director of product marketing at Codecademy. Codecademy started off teaching people how to code. Now we teach people all of the technical skills that you need in order to start in your career or build up your skills in your career if you're an advanced professional. And I lead product marketing, go to market for both our consumer side.
as well as we have Codecademy for Teams. So that is bringing Codecademy into your workspace. And I've been in product marketing for a bit now, probably, let's say over six years, and I've been in the ed tech space. So the intersection of education and technology for well over a decade. And I've been really fortunate to be in the same industry. think that it gives me a really interesting perspective because when we launch
messaging, I know I've been on the competitor side a lot of times. So I know kind of what what that looks like. And before that, I was a high school teacher, high school math teacher. I also started off my career in consulting. So a couple of pivots that all make sense kind of looking backwards, but definitely, I did not start off saying I want to do product marketing. In fact, I think, you know, 20 years ago, I didn't even know
what product marketing was or that it accepted.
Ben Ard (01:56.289)
I that. I think it's so fun. Every marketer has this really cool pathway to find their career. It is so rare for someone to go and say, yes, I want to be a marketer and I'm going to go do this and get a degree and all that stuff. And I actually love the breadth of information and all that kind of cool stuff that you bring to the table. Also as a side note, and this is not sponsored in any way, shape or form. I am a huge fan of code Academy. I have spent countless hours.
learning programming languages directly from that platform. It's one of my favorite ways to learn. So very cool.
masha (02:29.416)
I love this and we did not talk about this ahead of time, but I absolutely love hearing that and I think that's one of the things that really motivates me to be in this space is I really care about the product and the company that I work for. I think it makes your job a lot easier when you can use the product and connect with people who use the product. that makes me incredibly happy.
Ben Ard (02:56.111)
No, I love it. It's such a cool way. I was a programmer for a little short stint in my life, and so it's helped me through a lot of things. So it's kind of nice. But what we're going to talk about today is really a front of mind subject for so many people that are looking to create content. I mean, you can't go more than five seconds without mentioning AI, and it has created this whirlwind.
masha (03:05.212)
this.
Ben Ard (03:22.975)
of extra content. In fact, I was actually doing some research and this was a couple years ago and it was as a part of our pitch deck and all that kind of stuff. But content has like exploded 260 X of what's being published online. Like it is absolutely insane how much content is being produced with AI and everything since like chat GP three, know, chat GPT three came out. So with that,
We have to find new ways and better ways of actually connecting with our audience and having them read our content and having it stand out. And that's what we're going to talk about. Masha, when you think about it, what are you doing to kind of stand out in this crowd of noise and all of this content being produced by AI?
masha (04:08.936)
That's a great question. And by the way, when I say what I'm doing, I want to be clear. It's also what the organization is doing. And I work with a lot of really great folks. So yes, it's very much a team effort. And I think that it absolutely has to think one of the things that's really important when there's just so much content and a lot of it sounds the same is having a very clear brand voice and having folks who are
Ben Ard (04:16.495)
Team effort, 100 % of team effort, yes.
masha (04:36.049)
creative and really connected to the product and understand the customer, shape that voice from the onset. And once you have that voice, sure, maybe you're using Jasper and you're training your models, but having that voice at the core, I think, is the first thing that's incredibly important. And aligning on what that voice is so that you don't have to have the same conversations every time you have a launch. You know kind of...
We use, for example, at Code Acadamy we try to use very simple learner-friendly language. And so we try to avoid jargon and that's just like a stand that we take. And so things sound typically in a specific way when we have a launch and we know that we're gonna write it that way. So I think one is just having a brand voice and having it connect to what your company does, right? Because our voice isn't going to work for others. And it also extends to like imagery and everything else.
I think the second is, not losing sight of the actual message. think a lot of times if you put something through AI, it just, it, comes back sometimes. And I use AI a lot, but sometimes it can come back a little bit like a, what is it like that mad lip of like just, you know, jumble of things. You're like, that's kind of what I was trying to say. Exactly. Exactly. And so you want to make sure that when someone reads this, they actually understand like,
Ben Ard (05:51.055)
Insert noun and verb and all that. Yeah.
masha (06:01.199)
what are you actually trying to say, right? You shouldn't have to restate that. And I feel a lot of times if I read, kind of enterprise messaging, I have to decode, like I get sales calls and I get pitches and I have to decode what are you actually selling? What are you actually like trying to say? And at the end of the day, whether you're enterprise or whether you're B2C, you're talking to humans most of the time.
And so connecting it to a way that a human brain understands a message, I think is incredibly important. So I think that second is just connecting it to the human and having the real meaning that's also quickly perceived. should not have to decode something, right? We don't have the time for that. And I think the third thing that's really important is, and maybe that should be the first, is being authentic, which can sound like,
Yes, of course I'm authentic, but by connecting to your customers and when possible the customer voice. And in fact, what's best is if you can actually say it in the customer voice. one of my favorite things that we do at Codecademy is, and this started before I joined, but we have learner stories. And so kind of longer blog post of this is a real learner. We did not make them up, this is their experience. And sometimes we include things like,
hey, they tried our competitors or they, you know, they actually, you know, they use our product and they initially struggled, right? Like you, really include real experiences because I think that that just helps people connect with the product. But outside of the learner stories, my favorite is when we can use real customer growth in our social, in our paid. And I think that it, it matters when you can connect it to someone real. outside of just, you see the message,
you can use the message directly. I think as a marketer, just being really connected to your customers, which again can sound like, yes, obviously as marketers, we wanna be customer centric and we wanna understand what our customers are saying, but truly kind of being as close as you can and having kind of a way to like be plugged into that, I think will help shape the message and help shape the content and what you're putting out so that it doesn't just sound like,
masha (08:26.571)
an AI that has no idea like, you know, what your customers are really talking about.
Ben Ard (08:31.725)
love that. think those are great, you know, three great bullet points. When you're looking at the authenticity and your voice and the things you're trying to come across. One thing that I'm always particular about is having a specific point of view. And it's interesting because AI if you have AI one shot like a one sentence prompt article, there is no necessary point of view. There's no unique perspective. It's a regurgitation of everything that it's found online.
How have you incorporated a point of view into your authenticity and your content and all of that? How have you found that? Or for you, is it more about the tone of voice or the specific stories? How do you kind of incorporate that? How do you distinguish that?
masha (09:18.899)
it's a good question. think that in, in some companies you can very much have, and you should have a strong point of view, but a lot of times it's, it stems from what I've seen, a certain representative of the company. So sometimes you have very vocal speakers. So, in the education space, you might have someone who's heading kind of the academic part of the organization.
frequently be the speaker of here, the changes that we see in the market, here are the top skills and so on. I think for Codecademy, we don't have that one singular person, but we do try to have representation of, from our product team, from our curriculum team. And so it's their voice, but also Codecademy's voice. And so we try to amplify them and really connect it to
of the folks within our organization create a voice that way. So it's not always exactly the same perspective, kind of it's all somewhat aligned, right? Because I also think that you have to be careful with having a strong point of view on everything because sometimes, especially Code Academy is part of Skillsoft, you also don't want to have it be too much of like PR because if you have something especially that can be divisive, it has to go.
please, has to go through all these things, right? So as a marketer, you kind of, wanna balance that because I think it's incredibly important to your point to have a strong point of view, but you also wanna be realistic in the organization that you're working in. And you also wanna be thoughtful about having slightly different perspectives. And so I think when possible, leveraging individuals within your organization to have an even stronger point of view and explain that point of view and also bring in their different perspectives, I think is incredibly helpful. So that's one.
And the other is having a brand voice that has a point of view. So for example, you know, right now there's a lot of negative and depressing articles about the job market and, you know, do you really need an education? Does upskilling really matter? The world is going to collapse. Like AI is going to take everyone's job and also no one needs to learn to code anymore because AI is going to do everything for us, right? And so,
masha (11:41.858)
one of the perspectives for us is one, Codecademy typically takes a much more positive perspective on life and opportunities. And, you know, a while ago we had this campaign of live by your own code. And I think it's very much of our tone is not based in fear, but it's based on opportunity, right? Of how can we look at the current environment and how can we be optimistic about it? And so not using kind of scare tactics of
do this or you're never gonna get a job again, right? And so like that's one thing that we're aligned on is like, how do you stay positive? How do you have that connection to how can we be there for you to make your life better? And so it's a very general perspective, right? It's not gonna say like, this is our stance on XYZ, but it gives a guide point of when we put something out to the market, how are we gonna talk about
Ben Ard (12:14.681)
Yeah.
Ben Ard (12:38.893)
Yeah, I love that unique perspective and it's crazy how even something as simple as we have a positive take on life and everything going on, sadly can be a unique point of view and very much is. So I want to go back to an earlier point that you mentioned, because I think this is really good to double click on. You're talking about bringing unique voices and that's kind of your authenticity and you're in some of the unique point of view. I love that you're exposing people inside the business.
And you're letting them write and be speakers for the business. And then I also love that you've kind of taken it to the next degree to have actual learners stories and giving them the kind of a platform for their voice. How are you amplifying their voices? Because there is nothing in this space that I love more than like getting to know the people behind a business and it builds trust with me and authenticity. How are you taking advantage of that? Because I think a lot of brands need to take note.
and figure out how to do this a little bit better, especially when it comes to AI written content that feels bland. I think there's so much value to the idea of, I see someone saying those words and I instantly trust it more because I know that there's an actual source. So how do you take advantage of it?
masha (13:56.585)
Great question, because I think that it's actually a little bit challenging to operationalize it, and I'm not gonna pretend that we do it perfectly. But there are, and it's slightly different for how we think about the learner and how we think about internally. I'll start with the somewhat easier of internally. I think they're starting with the basics of understanding who is excited to have their voice amplified and in what way, right? And so just a basic understanding of
who are the folks in the organization, what's their perspective, how do they feel about just having their face out there and then figuring out the format, all of that operational aspect. And then how do you make it really easy for them to participate because marketing is not their full-time job, right? And you also have to convince them that it's even a part of their job at all, right? Because no product person,
it has also be a marketer in their job description, right? But it's been incredibly helpful when we have kind of designers and product managers who are building the product actually speak about it, right? And so I think convincing folks why it matters and then making it really easy. And there I do think that you could have AI and other tools help where you can
draft talking points for them. You can have a conversation with them, record it, say like, hey, here's what I heard you say, this is what's exciting. And then just make it easier, right? How do you make it so that someone can record on their phone and you can just use it in a multiple versions of it? I think what I've found is the more you try to work with internal folks as if they're kind of agency creators and like,
write out a script and edit the script and go back and forth, it just takes too long. think you have to assume that part of it is gonna be organic and just get something down and, you know, ship it. So I think that's about kind of getting the internal voice. And I think also a large part of it is I am grateful that I've worked for organizations where I feel like marketing is really integrated in the rest of the organization. And so...
masha (16:17.4)
not having those silos, I think, has been incredibly helpful. And I also just personally love getting to know people and building and creating relationships, not because I think they're gonna work out for me in the end, but I truly love to hear about what people are working on and hear their perspectives. So I think that it naturally also just makes it easier to then say like, hey, would you mind sharing that broadly, right? And then,
In terms of getting learners, so I think that one, you should have a product that people are excited about, which is not always a given, but marketers can't necessarily control that. But having a process in place, I think, is really important. And so for our blog, we have kind of, these are the forms that you do, this is how we collect information, this is how we get people excited to contribute.
Ben Ard (16:53.188)
Yeah.
masha (17:12.218)
So there is kind of you think about like what is the structure to get the voice of the customer? And but the other aspect is it can come from a lot of different places. So how do you how do you put it together and how do you how do you use it? And I think there you have a lot of tools that can help but if you don't truly kind of if it's something that lives good as I've tried a couple of different tools and I don't remember the names of them now but
If it's something that just like lives in the background, it's really easy to ignore. like, we're going to collect all of these like customer opinions for you and all of this thing, right? And so figure out what actually works for you. So one of the things that we have is we have like a Slack channel that posts, people post like customer quotes to, and it is not the most efficient, but we see the quotes and we're like, my God, this would be an amazing ad or let's reach out to this person.
Ben Ard (17:47.118)
Yeah.
masha (18:09.546)
and see if we can get a longer blog post. And so part of it is also a little bit organic. Again, you can operationalize it, but there's also a point where you operationalize it so much that if it's not someone's main job, it's not gonna get done. I think that there's that aspect of just like people organically, like we also have a very strong community. And I am really grateful for the folks who volunteered to be part of our community.
Ben Ard (18:22.493)
Yep.
masha (18:38.551)
the community leads on Codecademy. And so that's a great way of getting both positive quotes that we can use in marketing, but also just insights sometimes that aren't necessarily positive. So I think that it's just about like figuring out the process that works for you within your organization. And it doesn't have to be perfect for you to start just building on that voice.
Ben Ard (19:04.761)
I love that, that's amazing. Well, Masha, these episodes are short on purpose and we have run out of time, but I love the insights. I love your perspective. I love how you're making your content stand out in this sea of crowded stories and everything being written by AI. This is so cool. If anyone wants to reach out and connect with you online, how and where can they find you?
masha (19:28.769)
They can absolutely find me on LinkedIn and I am happy to talk marketing. If someone wants to learn about kind of being in the tech industry or if you just have feedback, I'm Code Academy. Also really welcome for that. But I did want to just highlight, I am so proud of a lot of the content that Code Academy puts out. It is very much not all me. Like we have amazing folks that work on the messaging, the creative, the social. So I just want to be clear about them.
Ben Ard (19:57.039)
The entire team props to everyone there at the business. That's amazing. If for anyone listening, wanting to connect with Masha, her profile will be in the show notes. So scroll down and click there. Masha, thank you, thank you, thank you. I butchered that I'll edit in a second, but.
masha (20:13.462)
You were, you were, you were, um, can you please edit me so I don't have ums and I sound smart? I just want to sound smart, Ben.
Ben Ard (20:19.119)
You're good, we'll do it. But Masha, thank you so much for the time.
masha (20:24.426)
Thank you then.
