Katie Fortunato (00:02)
70 to 80 % of the job market is not on job boards. 70 to 80 % is not on job boards. So where are the jobs you might be wondering? It's all referral based. They don't make it to the job board. One, because the fees are crazy. But two, it's because networking is still the number one way. Over 65 % of hires are through networking and referrals.
Benjamin Ard (00:58)
Welcome back to another episode of Content Amplified. Today I'm joined by Katie. Katie, welcome to the show.
Katie Fortunato (01:03)
Hey, Ben, thank you so much for having me.
Benjamin Ard (01:05)
Yeah, Katie, I'm excited. This is a little bit different of an episode, but I think it's super applicable and I think everyone listening is going to find a lot of value. But before we dive in, let's get to know you, your background, all that kind of fun stuff so the audience knows who you are.
Katie Fortunato (01:20)
Yeah, for sure. So I'm a marketer and also found myself in the human capital space. So I think this will be an interesting point of view if you haven't heard from before. But, you know, my whole background has been in marketing, actually. And I've worked for companies like the Wall Street Journal, Dow Jones Company, Airbnb, AOL. Well, at AOL was interesting. It was like it was during the programmatic ad tech kind of coming out party, if you will. And there was a huge convergence of all these different ad tech platforms. So content has been a through line for me and that's early day in my careers, in my career. So yeah, now I lead innovation and strategy and my whole focus is helping companies connect to talent and we need talent to grow our companies, you know, for sustainable everlasting business. And you can't do that without the people. So that's where I sit is in the human capital space from the technology lens. We're not a recruiting firm. We don't do actual placements. We are like all of the piping and technology that run job advertisements. So, you know, I sit at the holding company level. I look after new brand launches and incubating new innovation ideas.
Benjamin Ard (02:30)
Love it. That's amazing. So what we're going to focus on for the audience today, Katie, finding a job in the age of AI. And there are so many people that are frustrated out of their mind, especially marketers who, you know, whether in a current job and they're just looking elsewhere or they've gone through one of the many layoffs that are happening nowadays and they're looking for things. It feels like a whole new ball game. Like a lot of these individuals haven't been looking for jobs since before AI, generative AI really came out. So when we look at it, what has AI actually changed about jobs, how they're filtered, discovered, like what, if someone looked five years ago and is now searching what changed in that time span.
Katie Fortunato (03:15)
Well, so a couple of things drove this change. Companies with everything going on macroeconomically, they pull back on spending. When that happens, typically marketing, sadly, is the first thing to go. HR is second, because if we're not hiring, we don't need as many recruiters. We don't need as many employee management type of people on the talent team. So that's had an amazing impact with the hiring market to begin with. Second of all, AI has emerged and that has made job seeking in some perspectives easier and some harder. And listen, it is really hard to be a job seeker right now. I also know it is really hard to be an employer trying to hire right now. So both are not working and the systems are totally broken. How AI is being used today is job seekers are using it in their search to help mass apply to all these different kinds of jobs. We call that bot on bot application activity. What they're also doing is using it in the content that they're giving to the companies, their resumes, their interviews, their portfolios, they're creating, you know, this is what, this is me, this is my work. And sadly, there's a lot of deep fakes and frauds out there. Companies are almost saying we don't even want to post jobs anymore because AI has made it impossible to filter through a thousand applications now to get to the right qualified people. So, you know, if you're somebody who's applying to a job and just hitting apply, apply, apply on LinkedIn, you know, LinkedIn has made it incredibly easy to keep doing that. And that is how they keep taking employers' money is because they are generating engagement. I question the real quality behind that. So everything that I do is like focused on finding the quality opportunities. AI is a tool that can be leveraged. It is not the clutch. And the other thing on the employer side with AI is they're also figuring out like, what does this mean for our employees internally and how we use AI? And now HR has all of a sudden become the epicenter of both of these systems in competition with each other. So I always like to say like, this is the age of the chief work officer. It's not the chief HR, it's not the chief ops, and it's not the chief marketing. It's like the chief work and they're looking after human, how we go to market around our human capital strategy and how do we treat our employees and how are we talking to them about the use of AI as a tool from like an ethics standpoint. So that's a little bit about my world. I mean, I feel for you if you're a job seeker. I can also tell you the ways to make it easier.
Benjamin Ard (05:55)
I love it. I think we should dive into that. This is amazing. I love the phrase bot on bot, you know, and it is a very personal decision to hire someone and to join a company. And through that explanation, all I'm hearing is that people have taken another step back from actually building personal relationships to find good fits for themselves. And for employers to say, well, how do I find real authentic good people? Because I'm just getting a million applications and I have no idea if they're accurate. You know, AI can write a great cover letter based off of my job description. And now everyone seems like they're super qualified. So let's take it maybe for the first step from the job seeker. What do I do? What do I do to stand out? How do I not just click that LinkedIn apply, apply, apply button over and over and over again? What do I do different now that hiring is fundamentally different?
Katie Fortunato (06:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so what you do is first, like you would approaching a brand strategy, get really clear on the core value proposition and what you want to communicate. And I love to like talk about the Ikigai, which is all about like looking at the intersection of three things. What do you love to do? What are you passionate about doing? What are your skills and strengths? And then what can you actually get paid to do? And at the center of that is the things that you should be doing. So let's say I'm organized. I love events. I love live performances and hospitality happens to be a growing job segment. Well, the three jobs that I should consider if I haven't is event planning or advertising in this industry and like the events and hospitality industry, you know, and you kind of like create your own target list. And then you go and you do account based marketing for your career. So you're not sitting in a client. You're not applying thousands of times. You're saying, OK, who is hiring for these jobs that are near achievable, right? What companies and how am I gonna go get into those companies? Looking at a job description and a job listing, that's the first step. That's a piece of information. And then you're gonna read the job description. You're gonna say, who does this job report into? And is this a new role or is this an old role? You start paying attention to these fine details and you can navigate your way into this company, I promise you. What we're also seeing is like, 70 to 80 % of the job market is not on job boards. 70 to 80 % is not on job boards. So where are the jobs you might be wondering? It's all referral based. They don't make it to the job board. One, because the fees are crazy. But two, it's because networking is still the number one way. Over 65 % of hires are through networking and referrals. And so that's that's the work if you were a job seeker. That's the part I would focus put most of your valuable time into.
Benjamin Ard (08:41)
So if I'm a job seeker, and I love this, so I'm doing my homework, I'm finding the right jobs and positions that are available, and I'm doing my best to kind of network into those, how do I utilize my network in an authentic way to find about opportunities? Like you said, the majority of them aren't even listed. How do I find out about those opportunities? How do I put myself out there and let my network know that I'm actually interested in finding those things?
Katie Fortunato (09:06)
Well, I think there's a number of ways. There's an omni-channel approach to how you market yourself that you're looking for a job. And it's one, you're going to put it on social media. And at first, you like you told me, Ben, in the beginning part here, that you volunteered your time just to start getting experience in something. You might not have gotten paid for the first few weeks that you worked, but hey, for you, it turned into a four-year long opportunity. So you never know. But putting yourself out there, a simple Instagram, if you're an Instagram or TikTok or LinkedIn, say, hey, I'm looking to do this. I've got a few hours of extra time. Does anybody need help doing whatever the X thing is? Or does anybody know someone they could connect me to? And then you can use your LinkedIn as a digital kind of network map and say, you know, they have the secondary connections, third degree connections. They have the groups. Ask for introductions and not just ask, but tell them why you're looking for an introduction. The other key thing here is you don't just start networking when you need the job. You need to always be networking and thinking like that, like everywhere you go, it's an opportunity. I might meet somebody. I always say that when I'm even going to get my coffee, it's who do you, who are you standing next to in line? And even the guy across the counter, if he's an amazing customer service person, you better believe that I'm looking at him as somebody who should come and work for me. So you never know when you're going to make that impression on somebody else wherever you go. And that comes down to like, what's your personal brand? How do you show up every day? And how are you talking to people about what you want to do and what you like doing?
Benjamin Ard (10:42)
I love that. So now let's go to the employer side of things. And you have spent ages knowing the technology and all of the piping, how that all works. How do employers best find the right fits for their company and really get through all that noise and AI slop that they're getting in the form of applications and things like that?
Katie Fortunato (11:02)
I wish I could tell you there was like one thing because it's not a one size fits all and every company has their own strategy. But I can tell you a little bit about like from our employers, what they're doing. We work with the top fortune 500 across the world and some of the most known brands that you've ever heard. But we also are in a different, we're at like the high volume side where there's either always a need, always demand and always turn. And they solve for it in many different ways and they don't ever stop. And that's we actually call it, it's recruitment marketing, it's called. So we look at everything as a multi-channel approach. And that's the advertising technology that we've built. And then our business has expanded into like employer brand initiatives. And now we're looking at what do employers need to do from a content basis to figure out like, what is the content that I need to be creating and posting through my marketing channels about what it's like to be here and work here? So if you're an employer and you don't have the term employer brand in your vocabulary, you need to start. And what do you start with? Well, like every other marketing project, again, what's your unique employer value proposition? Why is it special for someone to come and work here? And it's more than a job posting on a job board, right? Like I've seen jobs, they start with some of them, they start with the benefits. Here are the first things that you get as an employee when you come to work here. And it's things like remote work or time off or paid or whatever. And then they get to the job description. So once you understand that about your company and where you sit, then you can kind of figure out, what are the first things that I need to market to not the consumer, but the job seeker to attract the right talent to begin with. So it's really understanding your employer value proposition, working on a marketing campaign strategy as you would. It's no different for smaller companies. It's just on a different scale.
Benjamin Ard (12:51)
I love that. And for an audience of marketers listening to this podcast, this is an opportunity to connect with the group internally and say, Hey, let us help actually show our employee brand so that people actually want to come here and work here. I think that's such a cool message because almost every job I've ever had, you know, it went as far as a job board and we probably weren't even a part of it on the marketing team, but to really show that off and things like that. Now I'm going to throw you a little bit of a curve ball. Culture plays such a big role when it comes to companies and what it's like to work somewhere. And if people feel like they fit in and if they get fulfillment from that culture, any tips for marketers on ways to show off that culture to the outside world, to market that, to brand that so that the right kinds of fit really kind of seek them out and try to join the business.
Katie Fortunato (13:40)
Absolutely. I think in the employer side, it might be called a department that's like CSR, corporate social responsibility, but it's not just that. So I would challenge you as a marketer to like look outside of what is going on in your CSR team. You know, what is your CEO's story? What is the leadership like? Because everything kind of trickles down from the top, right? And if you have a leader who is, let's say, compassionate, charitable, going into all the philanthropic things and no one's talking about it, you're missing that moment to market the cause, the cause marketing, I guess. So you have to look for the details because they're there. If you work for an organization who's not doing anything, I strongly urge you to get interested because if you want the next generation to come to work for you, this is the number one thing that they're looking for. That's not what I think. That's what I know. They're looking for what is, what is this? What is this company doing for the world for the greater good? How are they using business for good? And also how are they treating their employees? Like impact doesn't have to be, you know, what's the outward facing thing. Impact can be, what is this? What does this employer do for me? Are they giving me upskilling? Are they giving me coaching? Is there an internal mobility pathway? So if you're a marketer who is being tasked with go and promote what our employees are saying about the brand. These things all have to be true, right? So fix that first. And then, tactically, video marketing is huge. Content marketing is huge. This is where my company, Jobstream, comes into play is we are basically a content marketing channel where we are using creators as the distribution. So creators are talking about jobs, creators are talking about what it's like to be an employee. And by the way, video is great for AI search and the LLMs. So you're already building a content engine that is future-proofed. Not proof, nobody really knows, but future-friendly, I should say.
Benjamin Ard (15:38)
I love that. And just for anyone listening, there is going to be some links to some of this cool stuff. Because I, I'm excited about the future of the technology and how to do all of this kind of stuff. I'm excited for this new brand in your business. What a couple of quick stories from my end of things. Number one, there's a company here in Utah. Their company is called Redo and shout out to Sterling Snow. He's their CEO. He posts every single promotion on LinkedIn. Every single time a single employee gets promoted. He makes sure he makes a big deal of it. And that kind of has this culture of we're excited because people want to work here because they get promoted. I also worked at a company and this is like the most selfish thing you can do as an employer, but it's like the coolest thing ever. They went above and beyond on their Christmas. They gave like, I mean, I don't know how much they spent. It probably was millions of dollars in employee gifts for a Christmas party. And the next day, people were listening to people in grocery store checkout lines, talking about the crazy gifts that not even like their spouse or significant other had, but like a neighbor or something and all that. Like everyone knew about it and the amount of inflow of applications was through the roof. So I think there are some fun ways of doing everything you're talking about. I love the idea of using influencers and content creators. Get creative. Like, I think that, I mean, do you agree, Katie, like, don't just do the AI stuff, get creative, be a human on both sides of the equation and kind of let yourself shine. Is that kind of what we're talking about here today?
Katie Fortunato (17:03)
That it is, it's getting creative, looking to the, you know, the new channels are your vessel, how you're going to get the message out. But it comes back to the content, the storytelling of the brands. Like that's an amazing example here. And if you look at like what companies are investing behind for their clients, like why wouldn't they want to do that for their employees? Because they wouldn't have the clients without the employees. So I think that's a great example. If I may share, can I share one anecdotal story?
Benjamin Ard (17:30)
Yeah, absolutely. Let's dive in.
Katie Fortunato (17:31)
Also because you're a boy dad and I'm a boy mom and we live in the world of like, my friends are like, let's play Mahjong and I'm like, can we play Pokemon battlefield please? Because so, so Pokemon is a client and they said, we get all of these job applications and we're not really hiring for that many positions, but look at their business. It's flourished in the last 25 years. It's just absolutely incredible. They cannot ignore these inbound applications because these are their biggest consumers. These are their biggest fans. So I love when companies are like, how do we invest in this? Noticing this is a channel that is not just about job applications. It's a consumer channel of our most loyal fan base. So, you know, what I love about this example is like it's a legacy brand. They do things the old way, just like all these other older legacy brands. They have to keep reinventing themselves. And what does that look like? And, you know, we are a gaming platform. Are we going to gamify the hiring process now? Are we going to gamify the way that we're engaging this very important segment for us? So, you know, ultimately I can't discuss if and what they're doing, but the fact that they brought the conversation to us was like, it's a really creative problem to solve, right? Turning a negative experience of, sorry, we reject your application and we regret to inform you that, but now we have other opportunities for you and they might be other jobs or they might be some gaming thing or they might be some fan club thing. You know, really thinking about the whole brand, I think is, it could be an experience that even if it's in the hiring area, it's marketing, it's customers and it's engagement. People feel that.
Benjamin Ard (19:13)
That's a genius. I love that. And the genuine concern for the customers to know only the most avid fans are going to be the ones that love our products so much that they want to work here. And we need to treat them with respect and we need to take care of them. This is so cool. I mean, it's got the wheels turning. Everyone listening, I hope you're enjoying all of the creative ways that you can focus on hiring. Treating your applicants well, that goes a long ways. I mean, we didn't really dive into it other than your story. Rejection is not fun, especially for this pivotal moment in people's careers and lives where they're desperate for a job, treating them with respect, helping them feel seen and heard in such a way where if there is a position down the road where they are a better fit, they're not jaded and feel extremely upset about that experience and treat people like humans. But again, like as a business, I understand it. There's so many applications and things like that that happen. How do you respond? And it's all creative problems that we need to solve. But I think that there's a lot of cool ways of bringing humanity back into hiring. And I love this. So Katie, for anyone who's listened today and is super curious about all this stuff going on, how did they reach out and connect with you online?
Katie Fortunato (20:20)
So connect with me on LinkedIn. If you're someone who is in the job search, you know, I'm not sure I can be so helpful there with your individual, but I can give you access to a job network that is exclusive to us and our clients and brands. And I'll also give you a labor market intelligence, like see where the jobs are so that job seekers know where to focus their time. That's online. That's on Jobstream, you can find it at getjobstream.com. You can look for that and we'll put all the links in.
Benjamin Ard (20:47)
Yep, all the links, no matter what platform you're on, go to the description below. All of the links will be there. This will be amazing. Connect with Katie. Tell her you came from the Content Amplified Podcast. This will be great. Katie, again, thank you so much for the time and insights. This has been amazing.
Katie Fortunato (21:02)
Thanks for having me, Ben. Love talking marketing anytime.
