Episode 480Sales EngineeringSales EnablementBuyer Communication

How to build a simple mental model in your prospect's head, with Tim Schwedes

Tim Schwedes, who leads enablement and training for all of Egnyte's sales engineers, joins Content to Close to explain how to use content to build a simple mental model in a prospective customer's head. He typically hates slides, because slides used as a crutch tempt a seller to read the text, which is awful for everybody, and prefers a few bullets or a single diagram that lays out the problem you solve, how you see the world as a company, and your assumptions, so the content anchors the conversation without taking it over. He contrasts the sales conversation, a knife fight up close focused only on the buyer's actual problem, with marketing messaging, the air cover that has to resonate with everyone, and holds to a rule stolen from a mentor: anything said in a sales call either adds or detracts, it is either signal or noise, so if a pain was not discovered, do not talk to it and do not demo to it. He walks through Egnyte's internal jawbreaker slide on content graphs, which stacks the content itself, a user behavior layer like recency of access, and a domain layer, with the example that no AI platform gets the Egnyte name right without something like a terms dictionary. He also upgrades the weak confirmation question, replacing does that make sense with does this address that requirement you were talking about, and shows how the same simple diagram gets tailored per vertical, since a CAD drawing resonates with an architecture, engineering, and construction company but only confuses an investment advisor. The closing advice: steal, steal, steal, from colleagues and even competitors, always give credit, and let the visible success of sellers who embrace simplicity pull the rest of the team along.

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Tim Schwedes

Tim Schwedes

Sales Engineering Enablement and Training Leader at Egnyte

14 min

Key Takeaways

  • 1Content should build a simple mental model, not carry the whole conversation. Tim dislikes slides used as a crutch for not knowing what you want to talk about, because the more text on the slide, the more the seller is tempted to just read it, which is awful for everybody. The better tool is a few bullets, or preferably a diagram, that lays out the problem you solve, how you see the world as a company, and your assumptions. The content anchors the conversation but does not take it over, so it stays a conversation rather than a pitch.
  • 2Sales is a knife fight, marketing is air cover, and everything you say is either signal or noise. Tim likens the sales conversation to a knife fight, real close and focused entirely on the buyer's problem, while marketing messaging is the air cover that has to resonate with everyone because you never know which single thing pulls somebody in. Inside the sales conversation, Tim applies a rule stolen from a mentor: anything you say either adds or detracts. If a pain was not discovered from the buyer, he tries not to talk about it and not to demo to it, because it would just be noise.
  • 3The jawbreaker slide works because it stacks three simple layers. Egnyte's internal jawbreaker slide explains content graphs as layers: the content itself, since the additional context AI needs is in the documents already sitting there; a user behavior layer, since a document accessed in the past two weeks is probably more relevant than one never opened in ten years; and a domain layer, where his favorite example is Egnyte's own name, because no AI platform ever gets it right, spelled E-G-N-Y-T-E, without something like a terms dictionary. Each layer adds value without making the model complicated.
  • 4Confirm with specifics and tailor the same simple diagram per vertical. He calls does that make sense an extremely weak confirmation, because anybody can say yes without paying attention. Does this address that requirement you were talking about refers to something specific the buyer already said, so the answer actually means something. Simple also does not mean generic: the same diagram looks different for an architecture, engineering, and construction company than for a financial services or life sciences company, because talking about a CAD drawing resonates with an engineering firm but forces an investment advisor to make extra mental leaps.
  • 5Steal, steal, steal, and let visible success drive adoption. His tactical advice is to borrow from colleagues who have figured something out, and even from competitors who explain a concept wonderfully, always giving credit, because especially when you are starting out, somebody else has figured it out better and people love to be asked for advice. To spread the philosophy across a team, he champions the first people who get it, accepts feedback where it does not work, and highlights the success of sellers who pare things down, because sales is competitive and seeing a simple approach win typically provides the path for everyone else.

About this episode

A lot of sales content keeps getting more complicated, and buyers pay the price. In this special Content to Close episode, Tim Schwedes, who leads enablement and training for all of Egnyte's sales engineers, explains how to use content to build a simple mental model in a prospective customer's head. He makes the case against slides used as a crutch, where more text tempts the seller to just read it, and for a few bullets or one diagram that lays out the problem you solve and how you see the world, so the content anchors the conversation without taking it over. He contrasts the sales conversation, a close quarters knife fight focused on the buyer's specific pain, with marketing messaging, the air cover that has to resonate with everyone, and shares the discipline behind it: anything said in a sales call is either signal or noise, so if the pain was not discovered, do not talk to it or demo it. He also breaks down Egnyte's internal jawbreaker slide on content graphs, including the terms dictionary example that finally gets AI to spell Egnyte right, explains why does this address that requirement you were talking about beats does that make sense, and shows how the same simple diagram gets tailored for construction versus financial services versus life sciences. If your content keeps getting more complicated, this conversation shows you how to pare it back down.

Topics covered

  • Using content to build a simple mental model in a prospect's head
  • The knife fight versus air cover contrast between sales and marketing
  • The signal or noise rule for sales conversations
  • Content graphs and the jawbreaker slide: content, user behavior, and domain layers
  • Confirming with specifics and tailoring the same diagram per vertical

Notable quotes

“The sales conversation, I liken it to a knife fight. It's like real close, right? The contrast is with marketing messaging, which is like air cover, artillery. The message for marketing has to resonate with everyone.”

— Tim Schwedes(05:15)

“I stole this from a mentor. It's like anything that you say in a sales call either adds or detracts, right? It's either signal or noise and we don't want noise.”

— Tim Schwedes(05:15)

“One of the rules of sales engineering is you confirm, and does that make sense is extremely weak, right? Because anybody can just be not paying attention and say yes or no. Does this address that requirement you were talking about? Like refer to something specific, right?”

— Tim Schwedes(10:00)

“Not to repeat myself too much, but steal, steal, steal, steal. There's someone who probably has something within your company or that you've seen where the concept works.”

— Tim Schwedes(14:33)

Resources mentioned

  • Framework

    The Simple Mental Model Diagram: Anchor the Conversation Without Taking It Over

    Tim's replacement for text-heavy slides is a few bullets or, preferably, a single diagram that lays out the problem you solve, how you see the world as a company, your solution, and the assumptions behind it. The seller then speaks to those things, so the content facilitates and anchors the conversation instead of becoming the pitch. This matters because slides used as a crutch tempt the seller to read the text, which is awful for everybody. The underlying job is sales engineering in one line: hunt pain, then map the solution to those pains or disqualify honestly, and a simple anchor that shows how you see the world speeds up both outcomes.

  • Playbook

    The Signal or Noise Discipline

    Treat everything said in a sales call as either adding or detracting: it is signal or noise, and buyers do not want noise. In practice that means unless a pain has been discovered from the buyer, do not talk to it and do not demo to it, no matter how good the material is. He frames the why with the knife fight versus air cover contrast: marketing messaging has to resonate with everyone because any one thing might pull somebody in, but the sales conversation is close quarters and focused on the one problem in front of you. Watch for the trap he sees in technical sellers especially, the urge to show everything because this thing is cool and that thing is cool, which creates noise without the seller realizing it.

  • Playbook

    Upgrade the Confirmation Question and Tailor Per Vertical

    Retire does that make sense, which anybody can wave through without paying attention, and replace it with confirmations that reference something specific: is this what you were hoping to see, does that resonate, and best of all, does this address that requirement you were talking about. Pair that with vertical tailoring, because simple in the diagram sense does not mean generic. The same mental model should look different for an architecture, engineering, and construction company than for a financial services or life sciences company, since each has different problems and focuses. His test case: a CAD drawing example resonates with an engineering company, but bringing it up with an investment advisor forces extra mental leaps just to figure out why it was mentioned.

Full Episode Transcript

Benjamin Ard00:11 — Welcome back to another episode of Content to Close. Today I'm joined by Tim. Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim Schwedes00:15 — Yep.

Tim Schwedes00:25 — today. Good beer.

Benjamin Ard00:27 — Tim, I'm excited. This is gonna be a fun subject, but before we dive in, let's get to know you. Let's get to know your work history, background, all that kind of fun stuff. That way the audience gets to know who you are and knows who we're talking to today.

Tim Schwedes00:41 — Cool, thanks. Yeah, weirdly enough, my career started when I sat next to a guy on a train in college and became an intern for this consulting company. And I'm not convinced they needed interns at the time, but they were new and they liked the idea of having an intern and then ended up working for them after college. And it was implementing old school enterprise document management solutions. So, you know, we're...

it takes like six weeks to install the software on various servers and such, you know, and then the configuration, we're talking like years long projects potentially, and then ended up growing into leading projects and then selling that software and then solutions on top of it, think like, you know, invoice processing, automation, contract, lifecycle automation, that kind of thing. And then about a bit over six years back, I joined here at Ignite,

very much appreciate the SaaS pace and the value that it brings. It's similar. It's content management type stuff. joined as a sales engineer and then within about a year became an SE manager. And now actually within the past year, my job is more or less to enable and train all of the SEs for the company.

Benjamin Ard02:05 — I love that. That's so cool. One of my favorite things is to ask people how they get into their career. I love your story about being on a train, meeting someone. It's just fun to hear everyone's story. It's so unique. So today what we're going to focus on, and I'm really excited about this. We were emailing a little bit about it, using content to create a simple mental model for prospective customers. Now you can kind of take that in many different ways as you kind of hear that statement. So I guess to kick things off, Tim,

Tim Schwedes02:13 — Completely random.

Yeah.

Benjamin Ard02:35 — What do we mean by a mental model in this specific context? Like when a prospective customer walks away from your content, what should be happening in their head?

Tim Schwedes02:45 — Yeah, so.

Anybody that I work with will probably laugh if they see this because they know that I typically hate slides. I dislike the idea of using slides as a crutch for not knowing what you're wanting to talk about. that's when people end up, the more text, the more you're tempted to just read the text, right? And that's awful for everybody. I'm thinking a few bullets, or even my preferred as a diagram, of whatever sort that lays out, all right, here's

the problem that we solve and or here's how we see the world as a company, our solution, what were kind of our assumptions. And then you can speak to those things. And that ends up just facilitating the conversation, right? Rather than being kind of the, it anchors the conversation, but it doesn't take over, right? It's still a conversation rather than a pitch.

Little I realized what I didn't say about sales engineering because it can mean different things you know depending on Where you are I mean basically if I had to explain it to my mom right I have I'm still not sure she gets what I do. It's You know we hunt pain and then try to map our solution to those pains or disqualify like hey This is not us right so then all the more so anchoring to What we do and how we see the world and if that fits them right then that

Tim Schwedes04:17 — speeds things along, all the understanding.

Benjamin Ard04:20 — I love that. And I like how you're talking about the fact that like you have a unique perspective as a company and your solution embodies that. And really what you're hunting for is helping people understand what that mental model is, what that perspective is, and then ultimately seeing if there's alignment. And if there is, there's an opportunity to move forward. If there's not, you know, there's just not because that's how you view the world. And if you look at it differently, either there's a teaching moment or there's ultimately just disconnect and there's a great opportunity to move apart.

So a lot of content tends, and I am guilty of this to the nth degree, can make everything more complicated. Why is that happening? Like what am I personally? Like I think this is fun. Like what am I doing wrong? You talked about the simple, you know, graphs and bullet points. Like how do we change this around to make it better?

Tim Schwedes05:15 — So, okay, I have my perspective from my role, right? Which the sales conversation is I liken it to a knife fight. It's like real close, right? And that makes it sound too combative. the contrast is with marketing messaging, which is like air cover, know, artillery. the message for marketing has to resonate with everyone. You know, don't want to miss a single thing that you do because, that one thing that somebody

might have wanted and got them in. At least that's my interpretation of it. I was a terrible marketer when I did that long ago. But in the sales conversation, I'm focused on what your problem is and that's it. Unless I in some way can discover that pain from you, I try to not talk about it, not demo to it, nothing. Because I stole this from a mentor. It's like anything that you say in a sales call,

either adds or detracts, right? It's either signal or noise and we don't want noise, right? So it's, I think unfair, the claim that I'm making like for all content, but for me, that's the, I'm pretty rigorous on that with the teams that I've coached.

Benjamin Ard06:33 — So what can we do? Like what does this look like in practice? And I do appreciate the nuance of audience and channels and all that kind of stuff. putting that all aside, what do you do to simplify and make like a simple framework that the buyer can understand? How are you finding those pain points and really focusing on something that matters in like the best way possible?

Tim Schwedes07:00 — Yeah, and it's.

I don't think any aid can overcome...

somebody not willing to have a conversation. It's gotta be the give and take. So that's kind of first, if you're looking for any kind of substitute, like I said, that's kind of not my approach. An example is there's a jawbreaker slide that is what we refer to it internally. And it ends up being content graphs because AI is of course kind of ubiquitous now. And one of our things, because we're a content platform,

does set us apart from like Anthropic, why do we need you? You know, kind of a thing. And if I had to, again, going back to the mom example, like what does Ignite do? Users can work how they want to work, but within the guardrails of what management sets forth, you know, inside the company, outside the company, all those controls are there without getting the user's way. And this would be an extension of that where there's additional context to

the questions that users are wanting answered, the things they're wanting to automate and accelerate. And that additional context is in the documents that are already sitting there. And so that's one layer is the content itself. Another layer is the users built on top of that. And their behaviors, hey, if I've accessed it in the past two weeks, it's probably more relevant to what I'm asking than 10 years ago and if I've never accessed it. And then the other thing, the great example is Ignite.

Tim Schwedes08:38 — You know, so a domain layer, there's no AI platform that ever gets our name right because we spelled it E-G-N-Y-T-E. There's no reason for that to be gotten right by it. But if you have like a terms dictionary, that kind of thing, and other content, Slack, whatever, right? Then it just adds layers of value. And what I just did would have been much easier, like referring to that actual Jawbreaker slide, like if you and I were looking at it.

Benjamin Ard08:44 — Yeah.

Tim Schwedes09:08 — But it still ends up being a conversation. Were I selling this, I would have broken a fundamental rule, which is monologuing for I don't know how long that was. But because you got to check in, are we on the same page with all these concepts? So it ends up being the simplicity of the content, like really paring it down, and then maintaining that conversation.

Benjamin Ard09:31 — I love that. So you're putting all this work and effort into it. You've built this mental model. You've simplified. It's for the one-on-one conversation with the person right there in front of you. It's not this broad mass media messaging kind of an idea. How do you know that it's hitting home? Like you talk about some of these things, but like, how do you know you've nailed it? Like, how do you know you've really achieved what you're looking for?

Tim Schwedes10:00 — Yeah, it's, it's, mean, one of the rules of sales engineering is you confirm, you know, and does that make sense is extremely weak, right? Because anybody can just be not paying attention and say yes or no, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter. The, hopefully you've already discovered some pain, right? You know, is this what you're hoping to see? Does that resonate is slightly better than does that make sense? You know, is

Does this address that requirement you were talking about? Like refer to something specific, right? And so just those confirmations honestly is typically, and it does help that.

kind of simple in the diagram sense doesn't mean not specific to the context. Because again, like we've got many, some of the verticals we focus on, like it's gonna look different if I'm talking to an architecture, engineering, construction company, which is one of our big verticals. It's gonna look really, really different. They have different problems and different focuses than a financial services company or a life sciences company. So like you can still have that simplicity tailored to that person that you're speaking to.

that also really, really helps. Because I'm talking about a CAD drawing, a design file that resonates with an engineering company, but I'm talking with an investment advisor, why? That's just, I'm making them do additional mental leaps to try to catch up to why I'm even bringing that.

Benjamin Ard11:30 — I love that. So one question I have that I want to kind of dig into in your specific role, as you're working with all of the individuals implementing this content in these simple mental models and the graphs and things like that, how are you getting the feedback and providing the insights to the rest of the team? How are you kind of pulling in and disseminating more value and helping the team kind of adopt this philosophy more?

Tim Schwedes12:01 — That is...

I'm about to crash out here because I'm always examining like what could I be doing better?

Like with anything else, the sale starts with the people that, the first people that you can find and champion it. And then accepting feedback where it doesn't work, Nothing's gonna be perfect and tailoring that. But.

Yeah, it ends up being kind of a loop. It's never perfect. And leverage those people that do get it, where the light bulb goes on real quick. And to some degree, mean, everything in sales, it's a very competitive type of personality. If someone's having success, then others are going to want to adopt that generally. I one of those things I've

I think I've probably mentioned now stealing something like twice or three times in this conversation. I encourage it. It's just give credit wherever possible, but yeah, someone's figured it out better than you have and take that and make it your own. So that's typically what I've seen. It's a slow process, but it gets there.

Benjamin Ard13:25 — And I like that you're using the actual results to kind of drive the adoption. So saying, hey, you know, maybe as we highlight this person's success, maybe we can highlight a couple of these things as to why they're successful and get the people excited about that and enjoy it.

Tim Schwedes13:42 — Because similar to what you're talking about with content trying to do everything, there are plenty of especially technical people. I want to show you everything, but this thing's cool, but this thing's cool. And then they end up creating noise often without realizing it. And then seeing success of someone who does the opposite of that then typically provides a path.

Benjamin Ard14:04 — I love that. So one of the things I really love to end podcast episodes with is tactical advice and more specifically, what can I start doing today, this week, this month, this quarter to improve along these lines? How can I use these new mental models, simplify? How can I really focus in and hone in? What would be your advice to anyone listening today on how they can improve on their end of the spectrum and start doing this?

Tim Schwedes14:33 — Yeah, it's.

Not to repeat myself too much, but steal, steal, steal, steal. There's someone who probably has something within your company or that you've seen where the concept works. also, mean, for that matter, I've taken stuff from our competitors where this is wonderfully explained. I think that ours is better, and then I can pepper that in. So it ends up being, yeah, just it's.

I think there's a humility in that. know, like, hey, maybe I'll figure this out better eventually where I don't need that help, but especially when you're starting, somebody else has figured it out better. Just take that and ask them. know, people love to be asked for advice.

Benjamin Ard15:22 — I love that. That's amazing. Well, Tim, we keep these episodes short and we're already out of time. Thank you again for the insights. This is amazing. For anyone listening who wants to reach out and connect with you online, how and where can they find you?

Tim Schwedes15:28 — Okay, total there.

Tim Schwedes15:36 — Yeah, so best way would be on LinkedIn. Tim Schwede's, which I'm assuming that'll be in the name of the podcast because nobody has a prayer of spelling it. And I am the only one on LinkedIn to my knowledge because again, I wouldn't wish that last name on many people.

Benjamin Ard15:53 — Well, and for anyone listening, we'll make it even easier. Go ahead and scroll down to the show notes. We will have the link directly embedded in the show notes. Click on the link, connect with Tim, say that you were sent by us, say hello. Tim again, thank you for the insights and everything today.

Tim Schwedes16:09 — Thanks for having me. Yeah, and I'd love to hear from anybody and their perspective. Thanks.

Benjamin Ard16:13 — Love it.

About the guest

Tim Schwedes

Tim Schwedes

Sales Engineering Enablement and Training Leader at Egnyte

Tim Schwedes leads enablement and training for all of Egnyte's sales engineers. His career started with a chance seat next to a consultant on a train in college, which turned into an internship and then years spent implementing old school enterprise document management systems, where a single install could take six weeks and projects could run for years. He grew into leading those projects, then selling the software and the solutions built on top of it, like invoice processing and contract lifecycle automation. About six years ago he joined Egnyte as a sales engineer, became an SE manager within about a year, and now enables and trains every sales engineer at the company. His core philosophy: hunt pain, map the solution to it or disqualify honestly, and keep every sales conversation a conversation, not a pitch. He uses he/him pronouns.

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Frequently Asked Questions

Tim means that when a prospective customer walks away from your content, a clear, simple picture should be left in their head: the problem you solve, how you see the world as a company, and the assumptions behind your solution. The tool for that is a few bullets or, in his preferred version, a diagram, not a text-heavy slide deck, because slides used as a crutch tempt the seller to read the text, which is awful for everybody. The content anchors the conversation without taking it over, so the meeting stays a conversation rather than a pitch. That anchor also speeds up the core sales engineering job of hunting pain and either mapping the solution to it or disqualifying honestly.

Tim likens the sales conversation to a knife fight because it is real close and focused entirely on the specific problem the buyer has, while marketing messaging is air cover, artillery that has to resonate with everyone because any one thing might be what pulls somebody in. The two jobs need different content disciplines. In the close quarters of a sales call, he applies a rule stolen from a mentor: anything you say either adds or detracts, it is either signal or noise, and buyers do not want noise. So unless a pain has been discovered from the buyer, he tries not to talk about it and not to demo to it.

The jawbreaker slide is Egnyte's internal name for a diagram that explains content graphs as simple layers. The first layer is the content itself, because the additional context AI needs to answer questions and automate work is in the documents already sitting there. The second is a user behavior layer, since a document accessed in the past two weeks is probably more relevant than one never opened in ten years. The third is a domain layer, and his favorite example is Egnyte's own name: no AI platform ever gets it right, because it is spelled E-G-N-Y-T-E, unless something like a terms dictionary supplies that domain knowledge. Even while explaining it, he checks in with the listener, because the slide should support a conversation, not a monologue.

Tim starts with the first people who champion the idea, accepts feedback where it does not work, and treats the rollout as a loop that is never perfect. The strongest lever is competitiveness: when one seller succeeds by doing the opposite of showing everything, highlighting that success typically provides the path for the rest of the team, especially for technical sellers who create noise without realizing it. His standing advice is to steal, steal, steal, borrowing from colleagues who have figured something out and even from competitors who explain a concept wonderfully, while giving credit wherever possible. There is humility in that, and people love to be asked for advice.

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