Benjamin Ard00:00 — Welcome back to another episode of Content Amplified. Today I'm joined by Sayo. Sayo, welcome to the show.
Sayo Martin00:04 — Nice to meet you and thanks for having me.
Benjamin Ard00:06 — Yeah. I'm excited. This is an episode I didn't think I would be so excited for until I've dug into it. It's something I really genuinely am excited for the audience here. It's just like an honest breath of fresh air. I think it's like talking about things in an authentic way, but Sayo, before we dive in, let's get to know you, your background, all that fun stuff, just so the audience knows who we're talking to today.
Sayo Martin00:33 — Absolutely. So I always start by, I'm an artist first. I started my career as a spoken word poet in New York City, performing much all around the country. And, you know, initially I thought, hey, I should just become a poet full time. Well, that was short lived. And I decided, what should I do with this? So I decided to get an MFA in poetry. So I pursued a master's in poetry, moved out to California, joined a couple of rock bands, again, was the artist first. And then I got into PR and I got into tech PR. And that really kind of spurred my professional career. Worked in the B2B space pretty much for years, primarily been B2B. And I started out doing tech PR, then moved into digital marketing and then into full blow marketing, both in tech, entertainment, publishing. And now I run my own firm called Operating Rhythm with my business partner, Stacey Bay.
Benjamin Ard01:23 — And honestly, this new business venture you're going into, you gave me the full scoop and it is fascinating. So hopefully we can get into it a little bit during the episode because I really liked the framework. Think it's really neat. So selfishly, you never asked me to promote it. I think it's cool. So I want to include it. So I'm excited for all the different parts of this. I think this will be cool. Well, well, Sayo, we decided to talk about today and I think this is so cool and unique to marketing.
Sayo Martin01:41 — Thank you. Awesome.
Benjamin Ard01:50 — is that your marketing career isn't always super linear and then it can really come from different places and go different routes and really just how to embrace that. You know, there is this corporate ladder metaphor that people often think about and it's always the same rung after rung. Marketing's not really like that. And I think it's okay for us to embrace it. So why is it different in marketing? Why isn't it necessarily like super linear like in other career pathways?
Sayo Martin02:17 — Well, I think there's, like I started out saying that I'm a creative first. And I think because creativity is subjective in some ways, I think that's kind of why entering the marketing field can come from different facets of the creative world or the world of imagination or genius, whatever you want to call it, right? I think going into marketing for me has been trying to find a place where I could connect with people, right? Because I love connecting with people. Leverage my communication skills, right? Which is kind of, if you think about it, could be in any field. But also get kind of I call it deep in the psyche of what motivates us to act. And people say, why do you love marketing? It's like, because I love motivating people to be their best selves. And I feel like if I have a great product that could do that, I'm going to continue to pitch it, promote it, do whatever I can to help you engage with that. I think the other part I do believe is that marketing is not, dare I say, I always laugh when I say when marketing is taught in schools, because I think people come at it and they realize, goodness, I have it, I've learned a lot, but there's still so much more to learn. And I don't think you get a marketing degree and you say, I'm ready to be a marketer. I think it is a trade that you learn on the job. And I think part of it is, the creative part of marketing is just one facet of what you can do. And I think that's why people come from different disciplines and pour in, and it becomes its own bowl of jumbo, so to speak.
Benjamin Ard03:42 — I love it. Well, and I love that everyone in marketing really comes from so many different backgrounds, interests, hobbies, things like that. And marketing is a cool place where you can bring that authentic self to the table. I was saying before we clicked record, the vast majority of people who come on this podcast, which are marketing leaders, do not have a marketing degree. Like maybe five to 10 percent have a marketing degree. The rest are journalism, broadcast, philosophy, English.
Sayo Martin03:48 — Absolutely.
Benjamin Ard04:08 — I talked to someone today who was an art major. You know, there's all sorts of really cool things. And what do you think that brings to the table? Like, obviously the diverse backgrounds and all that fun stuff is really, really powerful. But how do we embrace this? Like, how can you as a marketer be like, okay, it's okay that I don't have the degree and all that stuff. Like what can we do in that space?
Sayo Martin04:29 — Well, I want to say marketing is truly a discipline. So I do believe those who are getting degrees in marketing, it's well worth it. But I think one thing that we all share who don't have degrees in marketing is we're all in the humanities. And it goes back into what makes us great. What is the human spirit about and what makes us great and how do we connect and how do we communicate? And marketing ultimately is about connecting people to something or to each other. So I think ultimately there is a connective tissue and it's finding that connective tissue. If you look under that categorization in terms of a degree, it's under humanities. And I found that when I was in university, I loved my humanities classes more so than others. But I do think there is a school of marketing that has evolved, especially with now AI. You have coders who are coming into marketing. You have people who are in data analytics because there is an aspect of marketing that is purely around data and analytics and the like. So I think it's evolved and it has broadened beyond just humanities. But I think the commonality between all of us is what connects us to each other, what connects us to things. And how do we, again, spin that up, connect and make it tighter to be greater. And I said to you earlier, I'm all about, the reason I got into marketing, what keeps me in marketing and what keeps me in the growth of companies and really helping companies grow is ultimately about how can we achieve our best selves, right? It is truly like something that I'm, it's like I'm like a dog with a bone. It's like, how do we become greater than what we are? And I look at the Da Vinci's of the world and all of the great thinkers and humanists of sorts. And it's all about how do we become better? How do we become our better selves? And to me, marketing for me...
Benjamin Ard06:00 — Yeah.
Sayo Martin06:15 — or growth or whatever you want to call it, commercialization, all that stuff is about how do we become better? What can we infuse in ourselves and connect to each other in order to do that? So I think that's the commonality within all of us and those that are in the marketing field and those who have evolved and kind of gone on to other things.
Benjamin Ard06:24 — Mm. That's cool. And I like the examples of like the Da Vinci's and stuff like that of the world. Their ability to look at problems in a completely different way than anyone else is really the ability, but also the tenacity to say, never going to give up. Like I'm going to solve this problem. I may approach it different, but I'm still going to be there at the finish line. I'm going to take care of it.
Sayo Martin06:50 — Yeah, I mean, I should say this to Ben, like the divinities of the world are polymaths, right? They specialize in many different disciplines. And I consider myself one of those people. I want to say I'm a polymath. I know that's egotistical, but I like to kind of go in and out of different disciplines. People look at my career, they're like, you're a polymath. But I like to go into different disciplines. That's, ultimately, you'll find some marketers are polymaths, right? Philosophers, artists, scientists.
Benjamin Ard07:04 — I can say it for you. I can say that. Yeah.
Sayo Martin07:15 — And they like to kind of go in and out of different disciplines and master those disciplines. So yes. Yeah.
Benjamin Ard07:20 — Yeah, I love that. So sometimes people in marketing can kind of get stuck in like their lane, you know, you kind of enter and you're like, okay, well, I'm an SEO person or I'm a content person or I'm an event person or a PR. How do people kind of start to level up their career, especially if they're kind of in a specific lane, how do they kind of bring in the diversity of experiences? Again, marketing is such a nonlinear pathway to like leadership and things like that. What's your advice and recommendation about how to kind of find your way forward?
Sayo Martin07:48 — Yeah, I mean, think there, let's think about other disciplines, right? So whether you are a plumber or a doctor or a teacher, they all specialize. And I think it's okay to be a specialist in marketing. You may specialize in SEO, may specialize in demand gen, may specialize in life cycle marketing, ABM, whatever that is. I think, but it's also great when you meet a generalist who says, I specialize in this, but I'm well versed all of these things. I think we are hitting a point in the marketing world where you've gone from these kind of specialized fields to now you're working in a team that was 20 and now it's four. Can you take on and wear other hats? And can you be a player coach? Can you train other people, work with an agency and all that? So you still need to be well versed in the language of marketing and be able to know how the tools kind of move and work. But I think that having a specialty is still great. With that said, marketing is evolving. So if you were once specialized in SEO, maybe you now specialize in AI style, LLM, whatever, you have to eventually evolve. I was thinking about this the other day about like people say, Sayo, you're a marketing generalist or specialist. I actually grew up in the school of being a marketing generalist. So I learned...
Benjamin Ard08:46 — Yeah.
Sayo Martin09:04 — pretty much everything in marketing. So when I'm coaching a team and working with a team of 20, they quickly realized Sayo could actually do my job. And she goes really deep on every single thing. And I think as marketers get more senior and they become CMOs and all of that, they start to kind of lose some of that edge. And I am like a hands-on marketer. I work really well with early stage, really well with PE-backed organizations because of that operator expertise. And that's kind of what helped, kind of spurred me to start Operating Rhythm. It's like, you kind of got to get in. I use this analogy, and you'll laugh: I was watching a docu-series on Garfield, I think it was Garfield, right? Was he the president that had the shortest tenure in history? Yeah, and as you're watching it, you're like, he gets shot, right? Because he gets shot.
Benjamin Ard09:46 — Nice. I want to say yes, but don't quote me on it. Yeah.
Sayo Martin09:55 — And someone trying to assassinate him. And what you hear is he didn't die from the bullet. He didn't die from the shot. He died from the infection caused by a doctor who is searching for the bullet without any kind of protection, just using his hands wherever he came from. And I think to myself, that is often kind of like how marketers or even salespeople sometimes do. They just kind of go in without understanding. The idea for me is looking at that systems approach. I think marketers are now evolving into that systems thinking style approach, so performance operations, which is to me a new category that's forming that my partner, Stacey Bain, and I are coining. We believe that's one of the ways marketers will start to evolve: to start to look at the entire system and say, how do we grow, or growth operations, or becoming a growth operator or chief growth officer.
Benjamin Ard10:49 — And I love that because I love the frame of the business. And I think that that's such a good definition to say, hey, as a marketer, regardless of how you're necessarily judged, some people are going to have revenue targets or lead targets or who knows what, you are a growth lever. When it comes down to the financial balance sheets, you are not a cost of goods sold. You are an operating expense to grow the business. And I think it's an interesting mentality to say, great, even if you have a specialty in a lane that you swim in, if you are constantly building and helping the community of marketers grow, then people are going to look to you as someone who can lead other people that may have other expertise than you. The only time I think you're going to get really pigeonholed is if they say, great, you do pay-per-click ads, but would it make sense for someone in event marketing to report to you? You've got to prove that you understand the whole growth spectrum. How do you recommend, like you talked about it, AI is changing everything. If someone's in that position saying, how do I expand my skillsets and stuff like that? How does AI play a role? How do they bring on this growth mindset to kind of go to the next level to be someone that can manage a group of people?
Sayo Martin11:58 — You know, it's so interesting, Ben, it wasn't for my career, it wasn't that I was kind of jumping from subdiscipline to subdiscipline, right? It was more about industries. So people were like, I call myself a cross industry marketer, where I started my career in B2B tech. I jumped into a little bit of energy, at that time it was called oil and gas. I've played a little bit in B2C, beauty, done a little bit of both. And what I've seen across the entire...
Benjamin Ard12:08 — Hmm.
Sayo Martin12:25 — kind of spectrum of all of these industries and sectors is, gosh, growth is just about, is the leadership damn good? It's just like, you look at, do the people work? Are there processes in place? Are the systems strong? And I think part of it is like every company wants to grow, every company wants to perform, right? And I think ultimately, if you're looking for that shift, you may want to start talking to people outside of your industry, right? It's just...
Benjamin Ard12:31 — Yeah.
Sayo Martin12:49 — especially if you're feeling that kind of malaise, or feeling of just, you know, I'm tired, I'm not sure if marketing is for me anymore. I was like, try to branch out of your industry, because you may find that it may not be marketing itself, it may just be the field, right? You just need something new and you need a new challenge and a new exciting challenge. I would say my background as a marketer is trying to figure out, and I'll say this: as a marketer, I go in where it's hot. I usually go into organizations that are in the midst of transformation, dealing with some kind of urgency, sense of complexity. They have, like I call it, a business event that has happened. Acquisition, they're looking to be acquired. All of these types of things that create a sense of urgency to grow faster, to perform better fast. You need to find that for yourself. Where do you thrive? People think I'm nuts for doing that. But there's something, it's like the warrior in me. I don't know what it is, but I love being in organizations that are battling a challenge, battling a blaze, and they need somebody to come in and move extremely, extremely quickly. And that's been my strength throughout my career. What are your strengths? What do you help organizations do? I think figuring out what that is, that can work across any industry. And that doesn't mean there isn't still the language of the industry that you need to understand, but ultimately you need to understand your strengths personally and where you thrive. So it's not just being a marketer, I'm an SEO person, but what about SEO do you feel like you're extremely qualified to do? And how does that basically translate to other things? And when I learned that quickly, I'm like, Sayo, you go into organizations. You fix something extremely fast. It's pretty remarkable. And then you're like, all right, anything else to fix? Anything else, Olivia Pope? And if not, you're like, I guess my time is done here. And I think people need to figure that out for themselves. And if you don't, you always feel like there's something left on the table. You're not fully reaching and doing everything that you can. And that's just who I am. I literally...
Benjamin Ard14:31 — Yep, yeah.
Sayo Martin14:43 — the other day I was reading about an organization, a car company that just had one of the biggest losses they've had ever. And I'm like, I would love to go work for that. Just love to run the perf ops diagnostic that we created. Like, that excites me. It thrills me. And while the board is crying, I'm like, put me in, coach. Let me figure this thing out. And I do believe it's a yes-and improv style. Yes, and what else can we do? What else can we figure out? When I left Deloitte, I was the hyper growth leader for cyber, right? Because I'm all about, how can we help the company grow fast? Or how can we help the company perform better fast, even in the midst of the most complex issues, where the leaders are losing confidence, not just in the business, but in each other? And how do I help restore that? That is the thing that energizes me. So you need to figure that out for yourself. And that could be in a different industry, a different field. It could be in a whole different company structure, not maybe publicly traded, maybe private, maybe nonprofit and all of that. So maybe the municipality, right?
Benjamin Ard15:47 — Yeah. Well, and here's what I love, Sayo, from everything I just heard, the passion, the grit for growth, the drive. I love the mentality that you talked about. Like, put me in, coach. I'm ready. We just had our worst quarter ever. That's what I'm all about. Let's figure this out. That hunger.
Sayo Martin16:06 — That thrills me.
Benjamin Ard16:14 — Man, if I put that person in front of a team and that mentality is contagious, my marketing team will win. Doesn't matter what the lane is. Doesn't matter the industry or the expertise. They've seen a lot. I love the get-outside-of-your-industry focus. They've seen a lot. They have expertise, but they've got this driving passion that everyone on the team, regardless of what they do, they're going to bring it to the table. They're going to get hungry for success. And that is exactly the mentality that you want them to have. I think that is like the perfect answer. If you look at this whole attitude, bring that to the table. And regardless of who you are, someone's going to say, ooh, I want more people to engage with you. I want you to lead people. I want you to be in the front lines. That, I think, is like the coolest part. So I love that.
Sayo Martin17:01 — You know what, Ben? Every leader, I ask them to do this. If you are taking on a new mandate, joining an organization, whatever role you're in, the first thing I do is I meet with each team member. So even if you have, hopefully you don't have a hundred direct reports, let's say you have 50. Take time. And I always ask, this is the two questions I ask: I don't ask what you do for the company. I ask, so what do you want to do? What's your... if you didn't work here, what would you be doing? And you can ask anyone who's worked for me, my job, between the time we were working together, is to get you closer to that vision of yourself. That motivates people. They're like, she is constantly moving, I don't know how she does it, it's like a magician, but that motivates people. And again, I would ask anyone who's worked for me, especially if I see an...
Benjamin Ard17:33 — Mm.
Sayo Martin17:47 — inkling of a lack of confidence. If I'm like, you don't think you could be an editor, watch me. It's like, you don't think, because every time a person tries to achieve their best self, it can only help the organization. I've never seen it opposite. I was like, I've never seen the opposite, maybe they're like, well, maybe there isn't a role here for them. I'm like, but that energy, I call it blue energy, that blue energy that they have can translate into so many...
Benjamin Ard17:52 — Mm-hmm.
Sayo Martin18:12 — powerful things and levers for growth. And so I always look for, that's the question I ask myself, so what do you want to do if you weren't here? What do you want to do here? But what do you want to do? What thrills you? Then I say, so what's not working? Why are you not there? Before I go into that, I already assessed the organization before I joined, so I don't need to ask what you think about the organization. I'm like, we'll get there. But what about you? What is the lever? There is a book, I can't remember the name, but it's all about becoming a linchpin. I said Malcolm Bula, well, is it Seth Godin? But it's about, is it Seth Godin?
Benjamin Ard18:42 — Is this the tipping point? No, that's Malcolm Gladwell's. I think you're right.
Sayo Martin18:45 — I mean, it's called Linchpin. I don't know if it's Malcolm Gladwell or Seth Godin. It's Seth Godin. And it's about how to, it's one of the books that inspired me early on in my career. It was like, how do you become like a linchpin in your organization? And I was like, you can't walk in and be like, I'm a linchpin. It's like, somebody has to see that spark in you and name it and call it out, right? And I think not enough leaders call that out. I'm passionate about people, as you can see. It's like, how do you call out the power in someone else to get them to be powerful for an organization? That's why I believe when you start cutting people, I'm like, do you really need to? Did you just not call out the power? Now, some people need a break. Some people have been in an organization, and I'm like, you're no longer contributing, you need a break, right? Maybe you need to go into a different industry. Maybe you can find out what's that thing that helps you thrive. But there's some people who just have not been empowered, have not been tapped, have not been asked the question, what do you really want to do? What inspires you? I guess I'm a rocker, my husband and I met in a rock band, so I know a lot about a lot, right? Sometimes people are like, I was talking to somebody and we were talking about, I'm obsessed with Vikings, for example, Viking history, all that stuff. And I was talking to somebody and we were talking about just the Viking world, right? And as we worked together, we used to always come back to that. And it was just a connective. So I was like, if you like that, there's something about you that likes warrior-ism. I don't know if I can make that a word, warrior-ism, like the idea of the fight for greatness. So things that I think very, very deeply about, that's why I was like philosophy, I think very deeply about people and what motivates them. Why do they like the things they do? I'm looking at your background, I was like, hi, yes, I'm like...
Benjamin Ard20:12 — I like it. Yeah. Yeah.
Sayo Martin20:27 — sports shirts and things. Like, I am very intrigued by that. I'm also a former athlete, right? So there is a polymath, I guess, in me, but it helps me relate to people in ways that probably others couldn't. So I'm like, oh yeah, I played, and I played at this level, and I've done this, oh, I've done it at this level. And it allows me to kind of traverse conversation. I'll say this, Ben: another thing is, I was in a meeting, a business meeting, and I was talking to the CTO of a huge bank. I wouldn't call myself a technologist in any kind of way, but I was talking to the CTO of a huge bank, and people were like, they want to try to talk about sales and numbers. I was like, you know what we're talking about? We're talking about fried chicken. We talked about fried chicken for at least 20 minutes. What's the best way to fry it? How do you do it? And I'm more vegetarian than anything, but I was so intrigued by his...
Benjamin Ard21:10 — Nice.
Sayo Martin21:17 — motivation, ideas about fried chicken and his love for fried chicken, and then throughout the evening he was like, I like this one. It was just kind of talking about things that motivate us, that move us, and fried chicken motivated him. But it was like things that allowed us to be who we are. That's going back to humanities, that's what connects us. And I think people need to figure that out. What connects you to the people who work with you, for you?
Benjamin Ard21:23 — Yeah.
Sayo Martin21:43 — And how do you motivate them at the highest of levels? Right? The highest of levels, and they will work to the bone. They will be like Spartans. They will be like Vikings in your organization. And that's how organizations grow. And that's how they perform at their highest, highest potential. So that's my philosophy. And so far it's worked. Even during hard times, when that starts to break, I can point to and say, because you're going to let go of 10,000 people, you'd be ready for that disruption in the water. And you heal that rift and create that new layer of trust in order to then grow again. That's one of our, again, in our performance hierarchy in the operating organization that I'm in.
Benjamin Ard22:24 — I like it. Love it. Well, and I love all of these passions and all of these insights. If you can apply them to yourself, you will see success. And then I think as you see leadership opportunities come from people who feel like they have adopted it in a way that it's contagious, that the rest of the team adopts it as well. And I think that this is incredible. This is an episode where I would say to the audience, go back, listen to every single word, apply it to yourself. And that is how you can absolutely grow in your career. Sayo, this has been amazing. For anyone who wants to reach out and connect with you online, how and where can they find you?
Sayo Martin22:59 — Yeah, LinkedIn is always a great way to just reach out, but you could go to OperatingRhythmPartners.com and of course reach out there. Anyway, you see me online, just ping me, and I'm good for responding. I'm not a ghost in any kind of way. So if I have any questions, especially if you're early in your career and you're trying to figure out what the pathway is, I love talking to students who are trying to figure out what the next move is, but also people who are feeling stuck, especially organizations that are stalled growth, right? Reach out and I'm happy to answer any questions and help out any way I can.
Benjamin Ard23:38 — Love it. For everyone listening, regardless of what platform you're on, scroll down to the show notes, you'll see all those links right there. Go ahead and click on those links and connect. This will be great. Sayo, again, thank you for the time and insights today. Really do appreciate it.
Sayo Martin23:51 — Thanks. Appreciate it.
